A Deep Dive into the Impact of Long COVID in the Workplace

Webinar Transcript: Long COVID in the Workplace

Shayla Cory  0:02  

Okay, let’s go ahead and get started. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. My name is Shayla Cory, and I’m the head of employer Marketing here at Inclusively. For visual description I am a mixed race female with brown curly hair. that’s a little bit all over the place. So my apologies, and I’m wearing a camel colored sweater. Before we get started, I have just a few housekeeping announcements. We are recording today’s session as well as transcribing it. And we’ll make both of those available to everyone after the session today. Closed captioning is also available as well as ASL interpretation. At the end of the discussion today, we will have a brief audience q&a. So feel free to submit your questions via the q&a module within the Webinar platform. And we’ll address those at the end. And with that, I’d like to introduce our panel for today. Joining us are Charlotte Dales co-founder and CEO of Inclusively, Dr. Catina O’Leary president and CEO of health literacy media, as well as Michael Cleveland, president of advisory services at Brown & Brown Absence Services Group. So thank you so much for being here today. So for the panel, I thought, let’s go around and have each of you give just a brief description of your organization. Michael, can we start with you?

Michael Cleveland  1:32  

Thank Shayla, I’m Michael Cleveland, and I lead the advisory services team at Brown & Brown Absence Services Group. For a visual description, I’m a late career white male with gray hair and I’m wearing a blue sweater today. So just a little bit about our company. We support group group life and disability insurance carriers by providing services for things like claim clinical support, consulting services, return to work and accommodation services. And a big piece of our organization also supports advocacy for individuals when they’re applying for social security disability benefits.

Catina O’Leary  2:13  

Hello, I’m Catina O’Leary. I’m the President and CEO at health literacy media. For visual description. I am a wide bodied female with blonde hair, I’m wearing glasses, and I have a black sweater. I’m really happy to be here today. So health literacy media is a nonprofit health communications company. We focus on providing communications that are accessible to our intended audiences. So we want to make sure everything we do is appropriate and accessible in terms of language and visual access to all the folks who need to get health information. Our company sits in St. Louis, but we work all over the world. Thank you for having us.

Charlotte Dales  2:50  

Hi, I’m Charlotte Dales one of the co-founders and CEO of Inclusively. I am a white female with brown hair and wearing a I guess it’s appearing up orange top on on the webinar. But yeah, I co-founded Inclusively a couple of years ago, my cousin became the first licensed facialist in the state of Florida with Down syndrome. And after my first facial with from her, I noticed how easy it was for her employer to make some slight adjustments and obviously the incredible impact it had on her career. So wanted to figure out how can we use technology to make it really, really, really easy for employers to accommodate people with disabilities at scale.

Shayla Cory  3:37  

Great, thank you, everyone. Charlotte, let’s go ahead and start with you. Can you talk a little bit about the recent long COVID study that Inclusively commissioned health literacy media to do? Maybe, you know, who were you looking to target? And what was the ultimate goal?

Charlotte Dales  3:53  

Yeah, I mean, I think that we have seen just, especially since we’ve launched the company during the pandemic, but we did start talking to companies and candidates, you know, for a couple years before and, you know, the pandemic really highlighted remote work and other accommodations getting made for, you know, for, you know, not necessarily the COVID the, you know, the health condition, but the situation and that really sort of has helped us accelerate how we see accommodations should be applied throughout the workforce and how much easier they are to make than one might have thought before the pandemic and so in July of 2021 when the health department actually had long COVID as now listed under the ADA.

Charlotte Dales  4:45  

This also means that you know, companies are required to consider and to provide reasonable accommodations as it relates to long COVID in the workplace, and just knowing what we know about the disability community and employers understanding in general around what accommodation shins can be made, what they are, how hard or how not hard in most of most situations they are to make. We really wanted to figure out how can we look into sort of what are some of the symptoms of long COVID? What are some accommodations that can be made, because we knew that this would be, you know, incredibly unknown territory. And sort of, you know, as part of what we do, we’re trying to help employers accommodate people at scale. And this is now going to be, you know, a huge, a way larger demographic that’s impacted people more broadly than, you know, what they may have known before, just given that people have probably been more likely to self disclose that they had COVID versus other disabilities.

Shayla Cory  5:52  

Thank you. And I think for context, Dr. Catina O’Leary might be helpful if you can just give a quick overview of, you know, how did you define long COVID? What are some of the symptoms that individuals might experience? And then for the study, how did you ensure that you were, you know, targeting those folks? Sure,

Catina O’Leary  6:09  

Sure, so long COVID is complicated. When we started thinking about the study, there aren’t good definitions that people agree on, we don’t have a specific classifications where people can point and say, That’s long COVID. There’s no blood tests for it. But when we think about it, when we were trying to understand it, we were thinking about a set of symptoms that are physical, mental, and cognitive, that affects people following COVID. So we were really thinking a lot about the brain fog symptoms. So people talk a lot about having a COVID experience, how they have a little bit of trouble keeping track of words, remembering things being functional, being overly fatigued for a long period of time after and just not feeling like themselves. Some other troubles that people had were continued problems with breathing, dizziness, mobility, but these things continued on for periods of time that were different for every body. But it was not a short period, it wasn’t just that you had COVID. And that went away. After a couple of weeks, this sort of continued for several weeks into months. And for some people, you know, six months or more. So we were really looking for folks who had those experiences. And so the way that we did this is in early September, into early October, we had an online survey. And we were really looking for information on how it’s affected people in their work. So we did that we recruited people using online methods. So we use a lot of social media, we outreach to advocacy organizations, community organizations, other groups who were interested in topics like this, who are advocating for people and communities, we send it out through multiple newsletters, other resources, and then we did word of mouth. And so we were trying to cast a really wide net to hear from people. We had an online screener form to help people sign up. So we captured demographic information, including things like did they have COVID, um, you can’t have long COVID, if you didn’t actually have COVID. To begin with, we needed to know their ages, race and ethnicity, gender, employment status, the size of employee, employer that they worked with an education level. And we were trying to do that so we could characterize the sample. And then when we got into the actual survey part, we knew who we were talking to, and we didn’t have to spend a lot of time recapturing demographics, we also wanted a good sense of folks who didn’t screen in so we needed to know at the first point of content to contact who we were looking at. So folks who qualified were emailed a link to full survey and then a gift card for folks who completed because we wanted to make sure to reimburse them for the time that they spent. So we had 7000 people who signed up for the survey in that short period of time. But about, well, all that 808 were filtered out for a variety of reasons. So many of those reasons were people who were filling out the survey multiple times, folks who didn’t have actually meet the criteria of having long COVID all kinds of other reasons. So we ended up with 506 people who completed this survey. So we completed that data and move forward with a diverse group of folks that we were able to learn from, and then we had a small group of those people that we did in individual interviews with so we could learn even more about their specific experiences. We’d be medically coded those. And so you’ll hear us talk a little bit later about what we learned from folks in those interviews that were more qualitative and focused.

Shayla Cory  9:21  

Perfect, that’s really helpful. Thank you. And then in terms of, you know, the some of the findings around, you know, long COVID impacting people’s ability to work. Can you share some of the data around that?

Catina O’Leary  9:33  

Absolutely. So, you know, we talked to all these folks, and we asked them the questions about about the survey, and we learned that among the people we talked to 48% of those had to take more time off for work. 39% said they couldn’t work as many hours as they worked before, and 28% said they had to stop working entirely. So among the people that we’ve talked to, these are pretty striking results. So lots of people were making adjustments. And and I think we’ll keep in mind, and we’ll hear this a little bit later in the survey, this is among the people that felt like they could, there were other people who didn’t feel like they could ask those questions. And there are all kinds of reasons that we understand for that as well. So it’s a pretty stark reality of how this affected people’s work. People really felt like, you know, it was a big deal. And even if they had those accommodations of asking for time off or taking longer, it really affected them as well. And they were sort of bothered by that feeling that they couldn’t do what they normally could have done, and they were uncertain and insecure about their work status.

Shayla Cory  10:35  

Yeah, it very much clearly had a huge impact on people’s ability to work, you know, both in the interim and longer term. Charlotte, I’m curious as to when your team was kind of holistically looking at the data. Were there some kind of general themes that bubbled up? What were they? And, you know, was there anything there that kind of surprised you from that?

Charlotte Dales  10:55  

Yeah, so I mean, interestingly, or not, interestingly enough, I think that a lot of the findings that came to light around, you know, workers with, you know, people feeling like misunderstood, maybe not knowing that, that what they were experiencing was long COVID. And then, you know, seeing sort of how the employers were reacting or not reacting, I mean, all of this, we see in, you know, disability itself with accommodations, it’s part of why we exist to try and bubble this up to the surface. But I think what was really interesting is, you know, when you look at the actual symptoms, and the way people kind of described that they were uncomfortable talking about it, or you know, that they were not, you know, being offered accommodations, it was all very similar to what we see around mental health. And, you know, I think we, we see this a lot across the disability community where, you know, physical disabilities and things that are more descript, like, you need to have a ramp or an elevator, those are very easy for people to visualize, when it comes to mental health, we see some of the same, you know, feedback from our candidates around, you know, feeling like they’re misunderstood or not, it’s not being taken seriously. And so, I think, you know, given that the symptoms have overlapped a lot with sort of other experiences across disability as a whole, it seemed, you know, interesting that one, this sort of reaction was the same, but then to, you know, this is going to be a far larger community, coming into the workforce and talking about this, I think the most surprising piece for me personally was around the difference between, you know, race, and you know, people of color, being less likely to want to talk about it, ask for things or even knowing that they had, that they could be making accommodations. Because I think that’s interesting to me, for this reason, and also to consider is, do we think this same effect is happening across the, you know, larger disability space as well. And that, you know, really brings into the fold something else we always talk about, which is the intersection of disability and other under invested in demographics. And so, yeah, these were sort of the main findings that we that I found, but also, you know, one that I thought was very interesting and could bring to light a lot of other, you know, things that might be happening across diversity, equity and inclusion as a whole.

Shayla Cory  13:43  

Yeah, I think you make a really good point about the fact that the employee experience looks very different, depending on the different types of groups that you identify, right? So I think that’s something for organizations to absolutely consider as they’re kind of, you know, revisiting what is their process around accommodations and how they’re supporting their workforce? Can we let’s, let’s maybe double down on just the the first theme that you talked about, which was the fact that, you know, workers with long COVID are, you know, feeling kind of misunderstood. And there’s a lot of confusion around that. And, sorry, I’ll clarify, this is actually a question for the entire panel. Why is it that you think that this is the case?

Catina O’Leary  14:29  

Well, I can start and just say, you know, I think the combination of symptoms is really a challenge. So we’ve got these physical effects, we have mental effects, cognitive things that are going on, and it was unexpected for folks, you know, so we’re used to having the flu or a cold, you feel bad for a little while and then you go back to normal very quickly. Once your fever goes away, your symptom goes away with COVID That’s not what happens. So many of the the main symptoms go away and you you’re clear, you’re not testing positive anymore, but you have these sort of lingering effects in all of these areas. is, but but really importantly, you know, 40% of the people we talked to said that they had depression or anxiety, post COVID that was going on. So thinking about how you’re feeling mentally and cognitively after this, and trying to figure out is this COVID? Is this isolation? What’s going on here? And is this going to be with me in an ongoing way? These are also some of the more stigmatized issues, lots of people don’t like to talk about their psychiatric or cognitive issues, mental health issues at work. And so feeling like, these are the symptoms, being new to many people, not knowing what to place on them is a really special challenge that folks have, and figuring out again, like when it’s taken more time to work, having trouble remembering things, all of those kinds of things are the kind of issues that were like, well, if we talk about them, is there going to be backlash? Am I going to get in trouble? How are they going to how are they going to adjust some kinds of work based on these kinds of issues. And then finally, for a lot of folks, they were having all three kinds. So physical effects, like, you know, trouble breathing, tired, more easily not able to complete their task, feeling dizzy, all of those things going on, at the same time feeling down or depressed, anxious, trouble remembering, having trouble focusing, and then also just needing to take breaks, can’t work as many hours all of this stuff. So trying to sort that out. While you also don’t feel well, in the context of work, when in fact, you know, most people are working because we need resources, that special stress that just sort of adds on is what folks are dealing with. And it is really, really a nightmare for so many people. And these were common effects. You know, 45% of the people had combinations of these effects that were incredibly high.

Shayla Cory  16:44  

Michael, any any thoughts as to why, you know, people are also feeling kind of just misunderstood and a lot of like, kind of alienated with us? 

Michael Cleveland  16:52  

Yeah, I think part of it, too, is kind of around the loss of income and income replacement. I mean, the one of the things that people kind of don’t think about unless you become disabled is, you know, you know, there’s an income impact to you. I think one of the big things that people really need to think about is, you know, what type of income replacement opportunities are there, when something happens like this, be it long COVID, or any other type of condition that that is extended? I think many, many employers have a short term disability program are a salary continuation program for their employees. So falling for those benefits, does provide some income replacement for extended illnesses that continue past the maximum benefit period for those short term plans. There’s also typically long term disability which can be provided by the employer. I think the other big program that that many people know about is the Social Security Disability Program. SSDI, as it’s referred to, also provides benefits for conditions that have to be extended in nature. And as many of you probably know, social security disability is harder to navigate. And an approval decision can take months or even years, depending on the severity of the condition. You know, the other big piece too, is the medical expense that people have, when they experienced this, I saw it in the study, I think it was five times the expense of for someone with long COVID, or disability is five times greater and from a medical expense perspective than for a person who doesn’t have a disability. So with Social Security ultimately comes that Medicare after 29 months, which can take some of that pressure off. I think the other thing, and then we’ll probably we talked a little bit about accommodations, the other thing to consider is at least a part time return to work. So if an individual has part time capacity, vocational resources are available through those disability carriers that I talked about. They’re very skilled people and getting people back to work either through traditional carrier based programs or through an ADA accommodation. Likewise, that there are some external rehab resources to available to folks with disabilities, things like physical, oc, or speech therapy and all that can be coordinated through the treating physician.

Charlotte Dales  19:13  

Yeah, and I would just say to that point around accommodations, I think, you know, it people you probably feel also misunderstood because they’ve never been in this position before to need to request accommodations. And so, you know, they don’t know what they could be asking for that. It’s even I mean, a lot of people even people who have lived with disabilities don’t even realize that it’s you know, it within their rights to even ask because it for many other reasons, Michael just just represented, which is around it’s a huge process and you know, it’s not efficient all the time and employer so then, you know, you’re kind of deterred away from people who are advising you within the workforce to to ask for them and so it’s kind of creepy. did a culture where it’s not normalized to ask for an accommodation right now, and it really needs to be to solve both this this problem with long COVID, but also across the the disability spectrum. And I think that, you know, asking to what Michael said about, you know, part time or time off, you know, what we found, though, the other piece we’re not we haven’t really highlighted on yet is not just absenteeism or needing time off, but the productivity of yourself when you’re, if you’re just struggling quietly through work, it means that, you know, we found even just on our team of 30 people that if people are struggling with mental health issues, or you know, other things that where they’re kind of feeling drained, it’s their productivity isn’t going to be as high and it’s way better to give them a week off, no questions asked to let them get back on, you know, potentially get sort of the help that they need and feel a bit more like they’ve recouped. And then, you know, they’re it’s, it’s not doing anyone a favor by having someone, you know, quietly struggling and not producing. And it can only exacerbate the the mental health stress the person is experiencing by not being able to perform.

Catina O’Leary  21:15  

I would just also add, I think that’s a really good point about the stress. But also fear, we haven’t really talked about that. And I was reflecting on what we heard from some of the qualitative interviews, and people would say things like, I just didn’t feel like myself, it was really hard for the doctors to understand. So you’re telling your story. Or your people don’t understand yet what you’re saying. And mentally, it’s just so challenging, I have a six year old I need to take care of, and I was so scared that I wouldn’t be there for them. So that idea that there’s a huge consequence looming, and you can’t predict what’s going to happen, and nobody can help you and help you figure it out. That’s really different than what people experience in many other circumstances. And I think to Charlotte’s point, the the community also already has challenges figuring out how to make a disability system work and get a ton accommodations. But this is a different kind of disability situation than most people have experienced as well. And so the doctors, the lawyers, all the folks that would normally help, you may not have the answers for you just yet. And you know, there really is the fear packed in other people said things like I didn’t know if I would survive. So people didn’t feel this is a passing activity. And so if we think about what it feels like to have that level of fear and how that also paralyzes you, that likely is also linked to the depression and the anxiety and the worry about what’s going to happen next. And so, you know, that misunderstanding of not being able to call up in the doctor say, oh, yeah, you know, I saw five people this week, and you know, they’ve all been in the same position than you, you know, six weeks from now, it’s going to be over or two months from now, it’s going to be over, there’s no predictability. And I think that really, that really adds a layer for for everyone.

Shayla Cory  22:52  

Definitely. And I think to your point about fear, right, that often expresses itself, depending on what your experience is. Right? So going back to Charlotte’s point about one of the one of the themes being, you know, like, when you started to look at the demographics across the data, that experience was different, and an often transmitted in terms of fear to even ask for accommodations. Dr. O’Leary, can you maybe just share some of the stats, kind of around that theme in terms of how that was differentiated across the different demographics?

Catina O’Leary  23:28  

Yeah, so it’s really interesting people accessed or talked about their ability to access the accommodations differently, depending on sort of their background demographics. And so among the survey respondents who told us about their asking for accommodations, there were differences by groups. And we learned that only 20% of Black or African American people were able to do so when reported their workplaces were already flexible, compared to 40% of white people who said that their workplaces were flexible. So white people perceived a flexibility that was much more open and available than people who identified as Black or African American. That’s a really big deal. In terms again, going back to the fear, and the discomfort, if you feel like it’s going to be okay that you ask if you feel like it’s already flexible. You know, it’s a different situation than than worrying that you’re asking a big question, that’s going to be a problem. And, you know, 35% of Black or African American participants said they didn’t know who they could ask. They didn’t know where to go. And they didn’t know what the process was compared to about 15% of white participants who were able to sort of identify the path. And then 30% of African American or Black respondents talked about being afraid of what would happen if they asked compared to 16% of white participants and so that, again, that feeling of it’s going to be okay, if I ask the question, nothing bad is going to happen to me was really different by race. You know, people who were white changed where they worked differently compared to Hispanic or Latino participants in the survey. The the people in the whole context of this though the people who were white also already reported higher levels of depression or anxiety. So this is the really interesting part is if you were white, you identified being more depressed or anxious, but that didn’t limit your ability to do the things that you needed to do. So that really reinforces these racial disparities and what that means and how that plays out at work, right? Even in spite of being so paralyzed and anxious and stressed, you’re still getting more comfort, perceived better access, which links to how you actually engage. Again, getting back to some of the quotes because I think these are really important, I’m going to read a couple of things people said, but but somebody said, I felt like I had to convince them that something was wrong and validate myself. So that feeling again, of having to go and prove how sick you are, which we also know from other areas, is much more common in people who identify as racial minorities or ethnic minorities. So that idea that you have to prove something to somebody who may be a different identity than you as well. So really reinforcing some of the real challenges and disparities at work.

Charlotte Dales  26:09  

Yeah, and I think this just shows that employers can’t take a broad brush approach to the employee hiring experience, education around this and the accommodation process, because it’s very different. And people are experiencing it differently across different demographics. And so we have to figure out how do we create customized, you know, and bring the personalization that’s penetrated every single other industry into the hiring process, and the employee experience and really customize and personalize how we, you know, go about working with candidates to set them up for success and getting the resources and support they need.

Shayla Cory  26:54  

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more with that recommendation, I think it’s really important that that level of personalization and customization across the workforce is imperative. You know, especially given the fact that we’ve, this study in particular has shown just the disparity in terms of, you know, perceived level of access to the different types of resources and support that employees with long COVID really require. So for the sake of time, just because I want to make sure we’re giving the audience plenty of time to submit their questions, and we can address them, let’s maybe wrap up this discussion, just with talking a little bit about some of the recommendations for you know, either what employers can do to better support their their workforce, especially those that have disabilities, and maybe are managing symptoms of long COVID, or if you have recommendations on you know, maybe what employees that are managing symptoms of this condition, what they can be do doing or thinking about as they’re kind of navigating the, the, this nebulous kind of process. Good, who’d like to start?

Michael Cleveland  27:58  

I’ll be glad to, I think the first thing for a person to do is really understand what’s available to them through their employer, and also what they’re entitled to under both state and federal regulations. I think most people are aware of FMLA. That’s a program that requires employers to its job protection, basically, for people who are unable to work due to their own serious health condition, or the condition of a family member who might be ill. So while the program doesn’t provide monetary support, it still brings a great value. I think there are also a number of states now that have some sort of paid family or medical leave, those are definitely important. Every year, there’s seems to be another two or three that kind of add to that. So if your state doesn’t have a paid medical leave today, it may tomorrow. So it’s always it’s always good to kind of understand what’s available from that that respect. As I mentioned earlier, those traditional short term and long term disability programs are quite common thing for any of these plans, there’s a couple of things I would encourage people to do. First is to really understand the application process, right? Turnaround time expectations. If I’m disabled, what type of supporting evidence am I going to need to provide in order to, you know, to provide my proof of claim, I’m critical to most of those plans is the need for supporting medical evidence, obviously, and so I strongly encourage anyone applying for benefits to notify their treating physician that they’ve made an application for benefits. And then a request for medical certification is going to be coming from the carrier or the administrator. So make sure the doctor is aware and understands how important it is to respond in a timely manner. And then I think, lastly, I’d probably just recommend that people, you know, avail themselves of EAP services that are available through their employer. There’s a wealth of resources and information that can be provided provided as part of that to help support a disabled person who’s in that time of need.

Catina O’Leary  29:57  

Yeah, I think those are great recommendations and one thing that I would add just from a personal perspective I had COVID, about a year ago, and I didn’t ease quickly. And I found myself having brain fog and some of these other symptoms, but really second guessing if that was real or not. And so I would just encourage folks to trust themselves, when you don’t feel like yourself. Take note of that, and maybe take take some notes, keep track of the dates and times, I found when I talked to the doctor about it, I couldn’t remember when things started, I couldn’t remember when symptoms started, I couldn’t remember how long they went on. That’s related to the symptoms of long COVID, certainly, but it doesn’t aid you in your process of getting care where it’s available, are also going through some of the processes that Michael just talked about. So as hard as it is to focus and pay attention to details. If you just grab a notebook and start to sort of jot down, like journal and or a calendar and just sort of write down what symptoms you’re having and track those over time, I think it can really help you figure out how things are going talk to your doctor about it, and then certainly access benefits and resources that you’re entitled to, if that’s appropriate for your for your level of concern and need.

Charlotte Dales  31:07  

Yeah, and I think on the employer side, there’s a lot of support that that, you know, is already probably currently being offered for other, you know, conditions, or symptoms or disabilities that had been disclosed. So, and a lot of the accommodations just that are associated under the ADA are really easy and cheap to implement. And I think when I was reading this report and hearing some of you know, the things that people were talking about experiencing, you know, I immediately thought this, this feels very similar to right after you have a baby. And, you know, that shows that, you know, there’s a lot of things that are done for women who have just had a baby that are that are already happening at work, and not that you kind of replicate, but there’s things in successes you can draw from from other, you know, other related, you know, whether it’s short or long term disabilities that have the same symptoms. So it’s not I think, for the employer side, it’s really not as hard or as expensive, or is, you know, disruptive, even as it may seem, when you’re not currently sort of involved in the accommodations process. But you definitely can be and you can start to think about ways, you know, just even as a hiring manager, can, you know, how can you help just this person that works on your team, it doesn’t need to be an accommodations process, it can just be sort of a human to human empathetic sort of interaction. And I think drawing upon, you know, things that you’re already doing at the company for other things as well. 

Shayla Cory  32:48  

I think those are all excellent recommendations. So thank you so much for, for your guidance on that. So let’s go ahead and open it up to the audience. For some questions, we do have a couple. So let’s go ahead and jump right into that. This first one is from Rachael, thank you so much for conducting this research. It’s so important to understand what people with long COVID are going through. I’m wondering which accommodations are the most frequently requested by this population?

Catina O’Leary  33:24  

We hear people Oh, go ahead, Michael, please.

Michael Cleveland  33:27  

I was just gonna throw in there. You know, what I’ve seen and read  mostly is alternate work schedules, the ability to take rest periods, shorter work days, the ability to flex schedules, work at home was a huge one, for this condition. So those are probably the big ones that come to mind for me.

Catina O’Leary  33:49  

I was gonna say the exact same thing and to Charlotte’s point, I think it’s been made so eloquently, you know, we’re already doing so many of these things and have been across COVID. We’ve already flexed in so many ways to accommodate kids being out of school altered schedules, people having COVID, on and off. So this is really just an extension of that, and being thoughtful about reality of people’s situations and sort of re evaluating what we really need to require. And I think a lot of us who are employers have had the same roles that we’ve always had, because it’s just been the pattern. But as we shifted to more hybrid approaches, we realized that this, this works even better. And when we treat people like humans, and we’re thoughtful about what they actually need, they in fact, work harder. They’re more productive, they’re more loyal, they care more about their coworkers. There are all these wonderful outcomes that I’m seeing as we do these things for folks. And so I’m not, I’m not seeing any downside for employers to be really human in this process and give folks what they’re asking for.

Shayla Cory  34:52  

And I think also, if I can just add on to those things that you were just sharing, if I might point out a lot of those accommodations are already, in many cases being offered right to a variety of employees, and in many cases, they’re they’re fairly cheap to offer as well. And so it’s it just speaks volumes in terms of when you take the time to actually sit and listen to what someone is experiencing and look for ways to kind of be flexible and make, you know, slight adjustments, you know, what a, what a big change what an impact that that can have on that employees actual overall arching experience and you know, their levels of engagement and satisfaction and even to productivity to Charlotte’s point. Great, well, I don’t think we I’m not seeing any other questions. So with that, we’ll go ahead and wrap it up. A huge thank you to all of our panelists for today. And, and thanks to everyone that was able to join us. For the audience. If you’re interested in learning more about the findings from the report will actually share the report as well as the recording and the transcription from today. So we’ll we’ll get that to you. And also, if you’re interested in just learning more about how to support your workforce for recombinations in general, please check out the inclusively.com. Thank you again. Thank you guys. Bye.